Insights from content creation: An interview with Utsav Mamoria of Postcards From Nowhere
Insights from content creation: An interview with Utsav Mamoria of Postcards From Nowhere
A good friend, a passionate market researcher, a (slow) travel enthusiast
Well, folks, I promised you I’d be working on interviews on Things of Internet this year. And what a fine way to start this will be.
Utsav Mamoria is a dear friend who runs a short-format travel podcast called Postcards from Nowhere. It’s a travel podcast but rather than give influencer-style clickbait about places to visit, Utsav encourages you to slow down and seek more meaning in the few places you do visit - and often, that might even be your neighbourhood. Utsav and I were fellow students at MICA many years ago and since then, our content paths have crossed many times. Over a decade ago, I did a comic on market research as a career with his inputs (he’s passionate about MR, yes). Later, he appeared on Simblified twice - first about said comic subject, and subsequently about taking a sabbatical for travel. It was during his latter visit to the IVM Podcasts studio in Mumbai that he said he’d love to start a travel podcast, but was unsure because there were so many already out there. My advice to him - uncharacteristically sage and useful - was to just go for it, because his style of travel was inherently different. And to me, the guy seemed genuine, rather than want to ‘build a brand’ for himself - I am pretty certain he would never accept a free stay for a positive review.
A few days later, a pitch for a slow travel show made its way to the top brass at IVM, and a few weeks later, Postcards From Nowhere debuted. It swiftly became one of the network’s most popular shows and certainly one of the most unique travel podcasts out there. It’s single-person narration, story-based, and like I told him on our Getting Meta interview years later - evolved from a “how to travel better” podcast to a “how to live life better” podcast.
Utsav’s approach to content creation is one I would highly recommend. Deeply based on a personal philosophy, done for passion than commerce, finding a voice along the way and sharpening it, and just having a ton of fun. And being a good friend I could pester for a last-minute interview (and one that helpfully provided answers in text saving me the trouble of transcribing), it was a no-brainer to celebrate his show and way of thinking for our newsletter. So here we go! Things of Internet’s first interview :)
Utsav - massive congratulations on reaching show 200. It’s surreal to think that I had a hand to play in this, starting with that conversation so many years ago, and I will gleefully claim part credit. I have several questions to ask you, so let’s get into it. On the surface it looks like you are "following your passion" as the hackneyed piece of advice goes. But I'm sure there's a lot of nuance to that. Your take?
The thing about passion is that people believe it’s inherent. Passion is your interest in something compounded. Passion is rice and meat cooked into a flavourful biryani, marinated with hard work, slow cooked with discipline and served with joy. Travel has been an interest for me for over a decade, slow travel for the last 5-6 years. But was it my passion?
The secret about passion is that it needs to be cultivated. You may be interested in n number of things, but the ones you choose to spend your time, creative energy and sometimes even money on will become your passion. I am interested in a few other things outside of travel: food, sketching, behavioural sciences etc. But I have consciously chosen to dedicate 4-6 hours a week to produce 10 minutes of Postcards from Nowhere every week for the last 4 years. I did like writing about travel (and have done so in the past), but podcasting is something I invested in. I combined both and now PFN is my passion.
But for a moment, forget PFN, slow travel, podcasting etc. What matters is this – We become the stories we tell ourselves. Look at your own life, and pick something you have excelled at – Somewhere, you began telling yourself that you are this person, this is your identity, and then your actions align to this idealised vision of you. That is why PFN continues to exist despite the desire and attraction to pursue other interests.
I’ve seen many people afraid to start their own content project because they feel there are many people already doing what they wanted to do. I remember many years back you expressing scepticism about a travel podcast, because there were already so many out there. Now you did end up finding something unique from day one - slow travel, AND a short format podcast, but many might not be able to find that differentiator when they start out. Any advice to them?
Whenever people wish to start something new, there is always self-doubt and self-rejection. It’s normal. Almost anything you are interested in; someone is doing it already. And at this point, they are doing it much better than you, and are far more successful. So why bother?
Now let me replace own ‘content project’ with own ‘child’. There are smarter children out there, more talented than your child will ever be. It’s unlikely your child will become the next chess grandmaster or start a company at 15. Probably, your child will have a regular trajectory in life with a few highlights. Does that mean you should not have children?
The underlying aspect is that we should do things because they give us joy. People find joy, fulfilment and purpose in raising a child. What if you treated your content project like you treat your child? Invest your time, money, energy – suffer pain and sacrifice comfort. I assure you that the journey will be worth it.
There is enough advice out there about finding unmet needs and make content around it. But since this is a marketing newsletter, let me say this: The iPod was not built for an unmet need. It was built because its creators believed in the product. Henry Ford did not make a faster horse and Ada Lovelace did not study mathematics to just teach but went on to build the foundations of the computer. I am sure Deepak can cite better examples, but you get my drift. [editor’s note: I can’t]
So you need to ignore all content out there in your genre, and do what you enjoy doing. The rest will follow – Things have a beautiful way of figuring themselves out.
Under any circumstance, please do not start a content project because it’s “cool”, gives you brag value or because everyone else is doing it. I assure you that you will soon find yourself disinterested. Because whatever your definition of success is – it will be hard to attain. There is a healthy probability that it may not come at all. But if it satisfies you, gives you joy, excites you and you lose yourself in it – why do you care for everything else?
You're someone who's managed to have a successful day job (Utsav is a Director, Brand Measurement and Insights at Glance) and a successful side project in PFN. Any tips for others for bifurcating their lives like this? Would you recommend complete decoupling or is some sort of overlap in job / side project okay?
There is a school of thought about work which categorises people into integrators, separators and cyclers. Dr Ellen Kossek from Purdue University talks about this.
Separators compartmentalise. During the weekdays and the workday, separators focus on their work and the task at hand. When the weekend hits, the separators put the phone down, reclaim their freedom and enjoy their down time.
Integrators blend the different parts of their lives all together. They allow work and home life to blend. As long as they make sure they have time for themselves and their work, and as long as everyone’s needs are met, it all seems to come together, and everything gets accomplished.
Cyclers go through phases that are all about the work. Your hours might be long, and you work really hard, allowing yourself to stay focused and reach important milestones and outcomes. Then you go on vacation. You completely unplug. You sleep and swim and play. You feel restored and happy, and when the vacation’s over, you put away your beach towel and head back to work.
I am an integrator. I have taken work calls sitting in Chitkul (Himachal Pradesh), one of the last villages on the India-China border. I travel for a month to just one place every year (past destinations include Ireland, Poland, Kashmir, Bosnia & Herzegovina, and Armenia) which involves me working remotely for a fortnight and be off work for the rest.
At work, I sometimes write a few hundred words between meetings, catch up on my travel reading and research during the lunch hour, even run a bank errand if there is time.
But that is me. You will have your own style. There are people who ‘cycle’ really well (They create a year’s worth of content in 2 months) and focus on work the rest of the year. There are people who ‘separate’ really well. Their weekends are sacred, and absolutely no work commitments get in. [editor’s note - I guess I’m a separator]
Outside of this, I have a philosophy. Treat your content project like your job. Do you tell your client / manager – Today I don’t feel like delivering this report? Can we do it next week? It’s a very boring philosophy, but it has served me well. PFN is my second job.
One of my observations over the last few years is that if you have a content project - especially podcast or newsletter - you need to almost create content around it, to promote it. Like Reels, or doing 'meta content' around the idea of the show. It's almost as if the content project and content by itself is not enough. (I think you're pretty good at this. I'm terrible at it.) What do you think about this observation?
Ha! I strongly disagree, I am bad at promoting my content. For the 200 odd episodes I have done, I might have promoted say 20-30 of them (Though those 20-30 of them have come out well). But its true – Promoting your content is as much work as the content itself. We are drowning in content, and discovery is hard. You’d think that after 4 years of PFN, everyone in the niche genre of travel podcasting would have discovered your how. Every week, I still get listens on Episode 0.
I am however, on a path to create more ‘meta content’. There is a book project and a side gig which I shall announce in a few weeks. Those are an extension of PFN, which itself feels like an extension of myself.
Let's talk podcasts as a medium. Both of us have possibly being early medium adopters. Both of also have given diplomatic answers to journalists in the past. But what do you feel the future of the medium is, in India? Are "video podcasts" or Reel clips the way to go for someone starting out anew?
Maybe video podcasts and Reels are the way to go. I feel choosing your form has deep implications on your content itself. It’s much harder to make a nuanced point in a reel, easier to make it in a blog post, and much easier to go deeper into it in a conversation. At the same time, scarcity sharpens the creators mind. When we work with constraints, we have to try harder to say what we want to say and it hones our craft.
As for podcasts themselves, I am as wise as the next person out there. One thing I am certain of is that the industry has to figure out a viable monetisation model, which it has not till now. Podcasts are deeply engaging: The average completion rate of a popular podcast is 85%+, whereas the same for even the best YT channels would be around 30%. Podcasts, however, lack reach. The ad monetisation industry looks at reach as the primary hygiene metric. So, podcasts lose out. There is another stream of revenue which is subscription / patreon etc. but I am yet to see any Indian podcaster make meaningful money out of it.
But the most successful podcasters today have found other ways to monetise: I call it reputational monetisation. Your podcast gives you a reputation. How can you monetise that reputation in getting additional work and streams of revenue? You also have an audience who finds value in your work. What can you offer them outside of the podcast? – I highly recommend reading Kevin Kelly’s iconic essay, 1,000 True Fans, to understand this approach.
Even if you go the YT route, ad monetisation is one least rewarding forms of monetisation. Most seasoned YTers branch into courses, books, events, physical products, one on one consulting etc. to augment their income. You can still do all of these with a podcast.
Branded podcasts. What do they need to do in order to succeed? In one of your excellent pieces of advice on Instagram, you spoke about authenticity being important - this is easier said for an individual than for a corporate, no? How can the latter, you think, find its 'authenticity'?
I co-host a branded podcast, Smartphone Nation, so I feel I have some insight around this (and now that I am mentioning them, want to add a disclaimer: Anything and everything I have said year is purely my opinion, not the opinion of my employer, my podcasting partner IVM or Omidyar Network India, the sponsor of Smartphone Nation). Yes, it is difficult to find authenticity as a branded podcast, but it is easier if the brand itself has an authentic purpose. At the end of the day, the podcast is a creative asset, which will reflect the brands’ values (because the conceptualisation of the podcast has to come from the brief). If the brand itself is inauthentic, no amount of angles / jugglery / smart writing will make it sound one.
There are 3 things which a branded podcast should have to succeed.
1. Provide genuine value to the listener.
2. Do it in an engaging and entertaining way.
3. Have a shelf life beyond the immediate release weeks.
Ending on a philosophical note. Over the last few years, as I listen to music myself more deeply and follow projects like yours, the more I can't help but feeling that there are a few 'meta lessons' with respect to enjoying a hobby. We've spoken about this several times in the past, and I will let readers know something is cooking at my end. But ultimately, it all boils down to mindfulness. Speak to me about this in the context of travel, hobbies/passions at large, and maybe all of life itself!
The current generation of humans were birthed in the image of capitalism. So, all we have been asked to do is consume, consume, consume. As Indians growing up in the 90s and early 2000s, there was not a lot of money to go around, so we tended to maximise every penny we had, extract the last bit of value from every object we own. So we became consumption maximisers. When we became adults, we carried the same idea into travel as well, trying to cram as many countries in a 15 day Euro trip. But what typically happens is that one, you are exhausted by Day 12, and two, you have a ton of pictures, but three months down the line, do not remember enough stories to tell your loved ones. So you did consumption maximisation, but you ended up with memory minimisation.
Now if you just did one country in those 15 days, you would see things at a far more relaxed pace. You will have time to be bored and observe things which you would have otherwise missed. Let me give you an example: I was in Ireland for a month and saw a job ad on a bus ‘Get paid to be thanked by people’. I saw this on the 8th or 9th day of being in the country, despite riding the bus in Dublin every day. It was an ad for the job of a bus driver, because everybody thanks the bus driver when they get off the bus. This led me to understand the social modes of interaction amongst Dubliners, and the respect for labour. This sent me into the rabbit hole of looking at the economic history of Ireland, and I could understand why there are millions of Irish migrants all over the world, and why Ireland has not seen any significant anti–immigrant backlash, despite neo-Nazism taking a strong grip on European politics.
This can only happen when one is mindful. We not only observe, but we dwell on things we see. We can connect the dots backwards and tell stories spread across time and space. This is the very essence of my travel, and of PFN. I cannot do PFN if I stop travelling this way.
I would argue that by slowing down and being mindful, one sees more of the world, because depth of travel is fertile ground for understanding the world and make everlasting memories.
And there you go! I hope you found that insightful. I think Utsav is not just a great podcaster, but someone who thinks deeply about content and mindfulness. I hope you all got something out of it!
And yes - I am starting work on a content project myself, something that digs into the ‘obsessions’ some folks have and the joy it brings them. You will be among the first to know whatever happens as a result. It won’t be a podcast, I’ll tell you that!
Ok wow this gadget
CES just wrapped up and I’ll have a full edition for you next week, but for now, check out this possibly transformative gadget that acts as a ChatGPT but for… Your app usage?!
Rather than build a bunch of APIs and try to convince developers to support the R1, though, Rabbit trained its model on how to use existing apps for itself. The large action model, or LAM, was trained by humans interacting with apps like Spotify and Uber, essentially showing the model how they work. The LAM learned what a Settings icon looked like, how to know when an order was confirmed, and where the search menus are. All that, Lyu says, can be applied to any app anywhere.
And this one, of course.
A good summary of Apple’s ambitions (and chances with the Reality Pro, here.
Updates
The biggest news so far this year in tech might be the new GPT Store. Will read up about this more and fool around before reporting back to you.
Plans to develop an India-centric Generative AI are afoot.
Finally, a Railways superapp!
Hindi music listeners are the only streaming cohort to keep growing!
Tiktok’s aggressively expanding its ecommerce offerings.
An Amazon Prime Video ad-supported tier is coming, as the broken business of streaming tries to find ways to sustainably monetise.
Nikon, Sony and Canon fight AI fakes with new camera tech.
Microsoft - once written off - briefly became the most valuable company in the world, overtaking Apple.
Big Tech is sliding down the “best places to work” list.
Nvidia and Getty Images have unveiled a commercially safe image generation tool.
Meta is doing well. Really well. No, not because of the metaverse.
The actors’ union SAG-AFTRA strikes an AI deal for voice actors (and that angers a few people).
Reads
The closer a product is to a human, the rounder it gets. A fascinating read / analysis on physical product design, with emphasis on (of course) Apple.
Meet Generation Alpha (and how to market to them).
Generative AI is making the same mistakes as Web 2.0.
A coder considers the waning days of the craft in the face of AI.
The fascinating story of .tk: How a tiny Pacific Island became the global capital of cybercrime.
I find Ben Evans’ no-BS-what-are-the-fundamental-questions analyses thought-provoking, and his recent one on unbundling AI is no different.
The latest thing to go viral on Tiktok is content from a round-the-world cruise.
Expect AI chatbots to be able to generate instant videos in 2024.
Cash-rich companies will enter more spaces. Case in point: ITC’s expansion of their cloud kitchen business (which, if you were not in Bangalore, I don’t blame you for not knowing of).
AI is supercharging science and research.
My goodness was that a long edition, I’m sure I’ve given you plenty to gorge on :)
Enjoy, and say hi to Utsav here, and check his podcast out - Postcards From Nowhere - on any podcast or streaming app.
Chuck